Thanks for your response Lula, you may want to read the Roman Catholic reply and response to that. What did you think of the radio discussion at Apologetics.com radio ?

A-D, your question was loaded.

Aeryck

Negative Aeryck. Questions are usually said to be loaded if they make a false presupposition. Unless you show me a false presupposition I disagree.

I think Rhetorical question would be better suited.

I said, "Until you actually begin to own your questions, by presenting what you know, you will simply be viewed as another 'Great Pretender'."

You are quite welcome...however, I note that you haven't answered my question or addressed any of my points.



Nah, this piece adds nothing to the discussion. It's just more Slick on Slick. St.Paul wrote to the Galations about guys like him. 1:8 and also to Timothy 1:3; 6:3. To even begun to be taken as credible, the Catholic would be named.

Besides, I've given an adequate refutation of Slick's take on Luther's unbiblical notion of justification by "faith alone".


Lula posts:

Because truth requires consistency and GOd has a right to be believed when He reveals a definite doctrine. No one who understands the NT could entertain loose ideas on this subject. It's quite evident from the NT, that differences in doctrines do matter very much.


Aeryck, please don't brush off Christ’s own use of the words justification. It's clear He is not using it in the Protestant sense of a one-time act. St. Matt. 12:36-37, Christ says, “But I tell you that men will have to give an account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned.” Here, Christ mentions the judgment that each man must face at the end of time for the works he did on earth. This in itself is a big problem for Matt Slick’s theology, since a salvation based upon “faith alone” would have no room for a final judgment based upon works. Although Christ’s words imply the requirement of faith, His focal point is that it is the individual’s works that justify or condemn him. Not only that, but no bad works escape His scrutiny since the verse specifies that He will judge “every careless word”.

What does Christ say in St. Matt. 12: 36-37 mean to you? It sure supports the Chruch's doctrine of justification to me.

And then connect that with this:

In St.John 14:16, Christ promises to send the Holy Ghost as an invisible source of light and strength upon His Church. While the HS will operate within the souls of Christ's disciples, the very promise that He will abide forever shows that Christ is speaking of a gift to be granted to the Chruch collectively, and to remain with the Church until the end of time. When Christ spoke the HS was was already dwelling in the souls of the Apostles as individuals but not yet dwelling in them as a group, knitting them together in the Chruch they had yet to form. For this purpose the HS was sent upon them collectively on Pentecost Sunday. It must be insisted upon that while the HS dwelling within the souls of individuals disciples of Christ, His teaching is never at variance with that of the Church.

The same Holy Spirit works both in the Church and in individual souls. That's why there is only one true doctrine of justification. What the Chruch says to our ears, the HS of Truth says to our hearts. The same wind which fills the sails of the ship provides for the breathing of the passengers. If a man says that the HS within him tells him something quite opposed to the teaching of the Church, then such a man is mistaking his own vain fancies for the voice of God. That is why Christ said, "If a man will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as a heathen." St.Matt. 18:17.

Christianity a la carte simply will not do. A Christian can't take bits and pieces of only what he chooses of the Gospel. Christ's religion must be all or nothing.

YAY for our side!!
---non-associated unaffiliated nondenominational disunited uncongregated fishbelly heathens

You are quite welcome...however, I note that you haven't answered my question or addressed any of my points.

Lula,
Often the term love is blind applies to religion, and certainly when one blindly asserts that one's religion is the only right one and ergo. it's beliefs are the only right ones. I appreciate that you would like answers to your questions and responses to your points, but I am tired of going up and down the various arguments with you, only to discover that you retreat into your cocoon. It is time to be a butterfly and fly, fly, fly...free to Jesus, for whom the Son sets free is free indeed. I have only referred you to Matt Slick in the hope that you might join his forum and take all your questions and points there, instead of doing what you have always done and that is making every thread where there is the slightest reference to your religion, the topic of conversation. http://www.carm.org

Aeyrck.

Kingbee's quote of Lula's quote of Jesus' words....'let him be to thee as a heathen'

Kingbee's quote of .......: 'non-associated unaffiliated nondenominational disunited uncongregated fishbelly heathens'

The fervent spirit of Apollos doth encounter the Spirit of God. NOT!

Aeryck.

Carm is a great site. I used to be on his site alot when I first found it a few years ago. In fact, I'm pretty sure I already introduced Lula to this site as well.

I love Lula tons, but I agree that you can only go over things so much until you realize it's not going to make a difference anyhow. Lula and I've gone over the same subjects over and over for nought.

Lula loves her Catholic church and in her eyes they hold all the answers and no matter what else is said everything is first sifted thru that organization before she'll believe it. I also would love to see her break free of the hold they have on her and "come out and be separate" says the Lord.

Even so, I do appreciate her loyalty to what she belives. She's not a lukewarm Catholic...that's for sure.

If she's HIS, in the long run, it doesn't matter what building she worships in. If HE wants her out, He'll call her out.

Lula and I've gone over the same subjects over and over for nought.

KFC,
I came to this conclusion awhile ago. In fact it had nothing to do with chats with Lula, but chats with a LDS Bishop. It is either the sanctifying graces or the completed work of Christ, anything else is just pointless argumentation. Seeing that it is only God that can open the ears and eyes of the heart, one can only discuss this a few times and then the rest is over to the peradventure of God.

Thanks for your insightful words,
Aeryck.

Lula posts:

Aeryck posts:

You are "tired" of going up and down the various arguments with me, only to discover I retreat into my cocoon, Really?

Well, it seems that the focus of this discussion has taken a side step. Rather than discuss whether or not there is one true doctrine on justification, the focus has been changed to my Catholicity.

First, I'm about to enter my first JU year anniversary at discussing (mostly on the religion segment) and I've never been known to retreat or duck from a discussion into my "cocoon" whatever that is. While I don't want to dwell on a sore subject, you, Aeryck, on the other hand, time and again, have retreated from discussion by either deleting posts or the entire forum...so let's say no more about this.

Aeryck posts:

I quite agree with you on this point right up until this very last assertion of yours.

Do you honestly expect to make an assertion against Catholicism such as this and not have to defend it. The difficulty lies somewhere in your court of ideas, not mine.

LW nailed it.



You sent me to Matt Slick and I rebutted his premise giving more than adequate reasons why he's wrong. I answered with....St.Matt. 12:36-37.

Aeryck posts:

Christ taught the truth with authority and promised to safeguard it until the end of time. He chose to do so by means of an infallible Church...and he who wants the religion of Christ must belong to His Church once they learn of it. To understand this, contrast this with Christ and some mere philosopher like Aristotle. When Aristotle was dead, his teaching so coherent, intellectual and positive fell into the hands of diverse disciples who dragged it in all directions and finally degraded it to rank materialism. Now, Christ knowing what was in man, took precautions against such distortions and destructrion of His teachings. He organized and guaranteed His Church from the doctrinal as well as from the practical point of view. He was the Light. When He ascended into Heaven, He left His Church to to continue His mission, to shine, not with a light of its own, but with His Light, as infalliably reliable in matters of doctrine and morals as Himself. All religions, including Protestantism, which conflict with the CC therefore are mistaken.

KFC posts:

The CC has no "hold" over me. I can come and go free as the wind. Why would I ever want to leave Christ's Church where I receive His precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity? Christ prayed for unity, not to come out and be separate.

Aeryck posts # 143

Aeryck,
It is vain to talk of flying free to Jesus, but deny His Church. The CC has authority under the guidance of the HOly Spirit and Christ supports it. "Tell the Church" He says, "and if a man will not hear the Church, let him be as a heathen."

I assume by your statement here that you conceive yourself in butterfly stage and have flown to Jesus. OK. In my langauage that means you've bought into Protestantism which is really religous individualism. It gives to each the right of private judgment and self-management. It's thousands of churches and diverse doctrines are limited only to national considerations. By its very principles, Protestantism ends up in diversity and an infinite numbering of varying doctrines according to the individual "butterfly" outlook.

There is only one truth and one Holy Spirit, the giver of Truth. Each Protestant minister really represents only his own views. The Salvation Army says Baptism isn't necessary; the Baptists say it is but only for adults; the Anglican Church says it's necessary even for infants. Are all these equally giving the truth to mankind in the name of Christ? Since answering my questions is tiring, I'll do so. It is impossible.

The Church regards Christ's religious society as a basic unit, a society through Christ and under His protection, which gives and regulates Divine gifts of faith, hope and charity. Catholicism, by it's divine nature, is an agent of unity, rigid as life in its eternal laws, yet as adjustable

What does Jesus, Who is the Way, the Truth and the Life, mean when He says "Tell the Church, and if a man will not hear the Church, let him be as a heathen"?

St.Paul says something that is true of all of us. "I can do all things in Him who strengthens me." So, I advise prayer, earnest, fervent, confident and persevering and God will give us the graces we need..all we have to do is ask and we shall receive...and accept what we have been so graciously offered...in His Precious and Holy Name.

LW posts #145

I think I understand what you're saying...and agree as far as our being fully assured without doubt that God is faithful. He has things all under control including those of nature such as the sun coming up in the East and going down in the West. This gives us the virtue of hope. After today, there will be a tomorrow...in which to live life

Faith is the beginning of our reception of the gift of salvation. When we speak of being "saved" or of our salvation, we are speaking of life eternal, which is a gift of God through Christ. My point all along is that it is not an unconditional gift. After the Fall of man God had no obligation to offer us eternal happiness, and therefore His doing so was a sheer gift. Christ laid down certain conditions involving good works and we are not necessarily compelled to fulfill them. The Protestant full assurance of salvation becomes a chimera, as also does its peculiar idea that for salvation we have only to "accept Jesus as our Savior" ie "faith alone". Our life in faith through acts of charity (good works) is a progression toward our sanctification. With the help of His grace, we are to work out our own salvation by good works in fear and trembling lest we ourselves should fail to do our part.

Is it easy to work out our salvation by doing good works? No, it's not necessarily, but like Christ, we must carry our own Cross as we live in this valley of tears called the world...with the full assurance that no matter what, the sun will come up tomorrow.


The most important point to all this is that enough grace will be given to enable us to save our souls..but we must want to cooperate with Christ's saving act. Our Lord tells us clearly that God will adjust His demands according to the actual responsibility of each individual. And that responsibility varies is shown in His parable of the talents, five being given to one man, two to another, and one to a third.

Lw, I think there is some evidence from the Catholic Encyclopedia that supports your opinion.

"Sunday

Sunday (Day of the Sun), as the name of the first day of the week, is derived from Egyptian astrology. The seven planets, known to us as Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, the Sun, Venus, Mercury, and the Moon, each had an hour of the day assigned to them, and the planet which was regent during the first hour of any day of the week gave its name to that day (see CALENDAR). During the first and second century the week of seven days was introduced into Rome from Egypt, and the Roman names of the planets were given to each successive day. The Teutonic nations seem to have adopted the week as a division of time from the Romans, but they changed the Roman names into those of corresponding Teutonic deities. Hence the dies Solis became Sunday (German, Sonntag). Sunday was the first day of the week according to the Jewish method of reckoning, but for Christians it began to take the place of the Jewish Sabbath in Apostolic times as the day set apart for the public and solemn worship of God. (WWW Link

Just as one example.

"

The larger point, however, was that (in my opinion) your God, your 'Jesus' IS the Sun, and that the majority of Christian beliefs, stories, and traditions were taken directly from various sun worshipping cults that predated them.

"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handy work. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which [is] as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, [and] rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth [is] from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof."

Your doctrine is close whip but you have misunderstood the Psalmist. He is not saying that Jesus is the sun, but the sun declares His glory, the glory of the only begotten full of grace an truth.

If you will study out the Word of Truth you will find that He became flesh and dwelt among us...... the sun never became flesh. He took upon Himself flesh and blood that He might die for your sin and mine. The sun, this did not do. It couldn't it is the creation, He was the Creator.

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"

The Creator becoming part of His creation, not the SUN but the SON...... that He might taste death for every man and woman.

During the first and second century the week of seven days was introduced into Rome from Egypt, and the Roman names of the planets were given to each successive day.

"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."

Just think adventure-dude if Rome would have only believed the Word of God they would have known the seventh day long before the first and second century. There is much this feeble creation can learn from God's Word. If only he / she would humble themselves before it.

"For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things [are] naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. "

There seems to be a lot of reading of material that has little or no value. The scriptures contain material that has eternal consequences.

"Study to show thyself approved unto God a workman / workwoman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth."

hamartano